The following are comments that did NOT get imported by Substack:
4 replies on “Why Marxism?”
Jonathan Wood says:
2013-03-31 at 8:04 am
This is fine and all, and I will apologize for my know-it-all attitude when it comes to Marxism, especially when it comes to Marxism as a whole, because I definitely lack the knowledge to act as if I’m an expert on the subject.
My problem really lies in the personification of systems, as well as the “this is how it is, how it always has been, and how it always will be” attitude of many people who are against such systems, because these “things” cannot be “evil”. The people who are corrupt and ruin such systems, they may be seen as “evil”, but the inanimate system itself?
What is obvious to me, and which therefor makes Socialism, or at least the socialization of parts of the country/government/market, a viable system, are the many examples where it WORKS. People, such as yourself, always focus on the examples of its mistakes and where it has lead to tyranny. Of course these problems and mistakes are to be avoided, but to simple dismiss the system as a whole is to NOT learn from the mistakes of the past.
There must be DISCOURSE, and debate, an discussion, and people like the man who spoke at the lecture you mention, are simply making a NEW mistake by dismissing the lesson altogether, and avoiding talking about its successes.
Socialized health-care seems like a PERFECT example of where everyone has the same need and desire for something, and so why not have the people-governed system control it? It works in many countries, you can’t deny that, so why not talk about it here?
Reply
zorkthehun says:
2013-04-03 at 3:58 am
Five paragraphs, five points:
P1
Apology accepted, learn from your mistake.
P2
It is an interesting question whether anthropomorphizing a system is a good idea or not, I think it is a perfectly valid approach. A system that creates bad incentives, actively encourages bad behaviour, a system that is corrupt and corrupting, a system that builds on immorality and predictably produces terrible outcomes can and should be called evil.
P3
…but that is exactly the point. We way past the point of focusing on examples. What I say is that the bad examples, the failures are not accidental, they are not mistakes but inevitable consequences of an inherently corrupt and stupid idea. This was basically the point of the lecture we are talking about. Maybe you should actually pay attention to what is said. Read Hayek.
Margaret Thatcher said that “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.” Bastiat said that “Socialism is a political fiction where everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” The socialism you see as viable is subject to the constraint defined by Thatcher. When the other people’s money runs out, it always turns ugly.
P4
But there IS a discourse. You are just not listening. The only reason why nobody talks about the ‘successes’ is because there isn’t any. Unless you want to call North Korea a success story.
P5
You are absolutely right, Health Care is the perfect example. This blog owes its very existence to an encounter I had with the fully socialized Canadian Health Care system a year ago. I had several posts about how and why socialized health care is bound to be a disaster.
Read the blog. It may make you wiser.
Reply
Jonathan Wood says:
2013-04-04 at 11:46 pm
I promise, I am listening. I don’t believe you are, because you’ve obviously made up your mind already. The stubborn mind is not an open, listening mind.
I seriously thought for a split second that you were talking about capitalism.. being an inherently corrupt and corrupting system, built on immorality, with nothing but bad incentives (profit over people), considering its one big, glorified pyramid scheme. Then there’s the inherent boom-bust cycle capitalism seems incapable of escaping..
The reason why I don’t see the power of the quotes you listed, at least in part, is due to the fact that they are CONSTANTLY parroted, spewed back and forth, and plastered all over public internet forums, as if they in and of themselves are proof of Socialism’s “evilness”. The other reason they have no power, and more or less mean absolutely nothing to someone like myself, is in large part because they seem to be worshiped like scripture by many people, such as yourself.
The first, and most prolifically spread quote: “… sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.” After doing some research on Margaret and reading several of your posts, I see where she and you are coming from. I always saw where this side of the debate is coming from, though. Perhaps I just can’t help but grasp why money matter, other than for obvious reasons. Its literally a monetary system setup by humans, given power and value by humans.. its all constructed by humans.
So why not learn from the mistakes of the past, the successes of the past, and have a fluctuating system? Some social programs, with the upward-incentive focused pyramid.. perhaps like, a diamond-like trapezoidal shape, where the middle class is the large portion, and then there’s very few very-rich, but also very few very-poor? It seems to make more sense than “every man for himself!”
I mean, I’m glad you got such nice treatment for your toe, but what is an artist supposed to do, especially when money just doesn’t make sense to him?
And your friend comment-er.. saying the US embraced Obama and his socialist agenda.. I ask, what socialist agenda is that? It seems to me like he really has not been socialist enough.
Reply
zorkthehun says:
2013-04-05 at 3:53 am
I am terribly sorry, but I cannot provide a meaningful answer as you did not make a meaningful point.
Yes, my mind is pretty much made up which does not mean that it is closed.
I think what I do based on logic, evidence and personal experience. In my post I provided links to many sources and I would be happy to offer more.
I would LOVE to see a meaningful critique of Mises or Hayek. The left hates “The Road to Serfdom” but unable to argue the points it makes.
If you think you cannot handle the full version, I can recommend the Reader’s Digest or the audio version. All three can be found for free.
As for your question: “what is an artist supposed to do?”
The answer is: Don’t worry, be happy.
Right next to the notification of your first post was an e-mail in my inbox with this link:
The following are comments that did NOT get imported by Substack:
4 replies on “Why Marxism?”
Jonathan Wood says:
2013-03-31 at 8:04 am
This is fine and all, and I will apologize for my know-it-all attitude when it comes to Marxism, especially when it comes to Marxism as a whole, because I definitely lack the knowledge to act as if I’m an expert on the subject.
My problem really lies in the personification of systems, as well as the “this is how it is, how it always has been, and how it always will be” attitude of many people who are against such systems, because these “things” cannot be “evil”. The people who are corrupt and ruin such systems, they may be seen as “evil”, but the inanimate system itself?
What is obvious to me, and which therefor makes Socialism, or at least the socialization of parts of the country/government/market, a viable system, are the many examples where it WORKS. People, such as yourself, always focus on the examples of its mistakes and where it has lead to tyranny. Of course these problems and mistakes are to be avoided, but to simple dismiss the system as a whole is to NOT learn from the mistakes of the past.
There must be DISCOURSE, and debate, an discussion, and people like the man who spoke at the lecture you mention, are simply making a NEW mistake by dismissing the lesson altogether, and avoiding talking about its successes.
Socialized health-care seems like a PERFECT example of where everyone has the same need and desire for something, and so why not have the people-governed system control it? It works in many countries, you can’t deny that, so why not talk about it here?
Reply
zorkthehun says:
2013-04-03 at 3:58 am
Five paragraphs, five points:
P1
Apology accepted, learn from your mistake.
P2
It is an interesting question whether anthropomorphizing a system is a good idea or not, I think it is a perfectly valid approach. A system that creates bad incentives, actively encourages bad behaviour, a system that is corrupt and corrupting, a system that builds on immorality and predictably produces terrible outcomes can and should be called evil.
P3
…but that is exactly the point. We way past the point of focusing on examples. What I say is that the bad examples, the failures are not accidental, they are not mistakes but inevitable consequences of an inherently corrupt and stupid idea. This was basically the point of the lecture we are talking about. Maybe you should actually pay attention to what is said. Read Hayek.
Margaret Thatcher said that “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.” Bastiat said that “Socialism is a political fiction where everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” The socialism you see as viable is subject to the constraint defined by Thatcher. When the other people’s money runs out, it always turns ugly.
P4
But there IS a discourse. You are just not listening. The only reason why nobody talks about the ‘successes’ is because there isn’t any. Unless you want to call North Korea a success story.
P5
You are absolutely right, Health Care is the perfect example. This blog owes its very existence to an encounter I had with the fully socialized Canadian Health Care system a year ago. I had several posts about how and why socialized health care is bound to be a disaster.
Read the blog. It may make you wiser.
Reply
Jonathan Wood says:
2013-04-04 at 11:46 pm
I promise, I am listening. I don’t believe you are, because you’ve obviously made up your mind already. The stubborn mind is not an open, listening mind.
I seriously thought for a split second that you were talking about capitalism.. being an inherently corrupt and corrupting system, built on immorality, with nothing but bad incentives (profit over people), considering its one big, glorified pyramid scheme. Then there’s the inherent boom-bust cycle capitalism seems incapable of escaping..
The reason why I don’t see the power of the quotes you listed, at least in part, is due to the fact that they are CONSTANTLY parroted, spewed back and forth, and plastered all over public internet forums, as if they in and of themselves are proof of Socialism’s “evilness”. The other reason they have no power, and more or less mean absolutely nothing to someone like myself, is in large part because they seem to be worshiped like scripture by many people, such as yourself.
The first, and most prolifically spread quote: “… sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.” After doing some research on Margaret and reading several of your posts, I see where she and you are coming from. I always saw where this side of the debate is coming from, though. Perhaps I just can’t help but grasp why money matter, other than for obvious reasons. Its literally a monetary system setup by humans, given power and value by humans.. its all constructed by humans.
So why not learn from the mistakes of the past, the successes of the past, and have a fluctuating system? Some social programs, with the upward-incentive focused pyramid.. perhaps like, a diamond-like trapezoidal shape, where the middle class is the large portion, and then there’s very few very-rich, but also very few very-poor? It seems to make more sense than “every man for himself!”
I mean, I’m glad you got such nice treatment for your toe, but what is an artist supposed to do, especially when money just doesn’t make sense to him?
And your friend comment-er.. saying the US embraced Obama and his socialist agenda.. I ask, what socialist agenda is that? It seems to me like he really has not been socialist enough.
Reply
zorkthehun says:
2013-04-05 at 3:53 am
I am terribly sorry, but I cannot provide a meaningful answer as you did not make a meaningful point.
Yes, my mind is pretty much made up which does not mean that it is closed.
I think what I do based on logic, evidence and personal experience. In my post I provided links to many sources and I would be happy to offer more.
I would LOVE to see a meaningful critique of Mises or Hayek. The left hates “The Road to Serfdom” but unable to argue the points it makes.
If you think you cannot handle the full version, I can recommend the Reader’s Digest or the audio version. All three can be found for free.
As for your question: “what is an artist supposed to do?”
The answer is: Don’t worry, be happy.
Right next to the notification of your first post was an e-mail in my inbox with this link:
http://youtu.be/rEM4NKXK-iA
Reply